SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours!

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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Godzillian »

Kruser wrote:
Norbie wrote:Bet ya a 100 bucks that you would have gotten one if they were still available, If you had the available funds obviously.
... Never! I didn't pledge because I was sure the price was a mis-print. I just find it funny that many posters say that their hobby has put them in the poorhouse, then they jump on a 100-dollar deck!

I collect cards in part because they are cheap. I often give decks away to get others started on the hobby.

Does no one else see this as a dangerous price threshold that has been crossed ... ?
So you prefer to collect in quantity rather than quality? That's what I'm gathering from this. It's not a bad thing, it's just that... maybe try to look at it from our perspective? A lot of us collect in quality rather than quantity, which is why you won't see us posting hundreds of $1 dollar store casino decks in the "Show Us Your Cards" forum or the "Hey, look what I added to my collection!" thread. But to each his / her own.
Lotrek wrote: Expensive and cheap are relative terms. A poorly designed 3 dollar deck, is expensive for me. Venexiana Gold is not just another deck. It has qualities that justify its price. And I'm not talking about the design which is a matter of taste after all. It's the first deck with fully foiled backs, it's an extremely rare edition of 212 decks, it's almost hand made, it's a piece of history in its way and the price includes registered mail shipment.

I start thinking that you guys are ripping me off! :lol:
This. Although I'm only really looking forward to the registered mail shipment. Can't wait to put the packaging into my collection... /joking
Actually, it'll be nice to have registered mail shipment internationally. That's like, worth $20+ in of itself! International backers / buyers are getting a swell deal shipping-wise.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Eoghann »

Dunno what the big fuss is about. Ever since I started collecting, I've been on this great, high fiber diet. I've never felt better! And boy do I look smoking in speedos now.

Thanks USPCC!

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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Norbie »

I realize that these cards aren't designed to be played with and do magic tricks, but what sort of quality paper are these cards made out of?
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by volantangel »

I believe it to be of similar stock quality to uspcc, 310 gsm stock off my head, not betting on it but it's my best guess.

Oh btw all sold out !
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Sher »

According to the KS page, 330 gsm French casino stock.

Please don't ask me what that means, as I have no idea. I dont pay attention to those kind of things :P But if someone can explain, I'd be interested to know. :)
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by montecarlojoe »

gsm stands for grams per square metre - so the higher the gsm the higher the density of the paper stock. So you'd expect 330gsm to be fairly stiff and heavy (for paper).

Calling it casino stock will speak of the quality of the paper - if it's going out to casinos you'd expect high durability and consistency of density and colour.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

montecarlojoe wrote:gsm stands for grams per square metre - so the higher the gsm the higher the density of the paper stock. So you'd expect 330gsm to be fairly stiff and heavy (for paper).

Calling it casino stock will speak of the quality of the paper - if it's going out to casinos you'd expect high durability and consistency of density and colour.
Exactly, for reference/comparisons: the MPC standard "high quality" paper, which actually is quite improved from what they used to sell, is 300gsm (grams per square meter) smooth or 310gsm linen. It compares directly to Bicycle brand stock now. Higher quality papers, such as the 330gsm paper Lotrek used is hard to find, but I have found one source for a 350gsm smooth bond that I will likely use for the Chromografix decks that really requires a very high gloss, high brightness paper to be effective with those ultra high resolution photographic images and 16M colors instead of 3025 shades, which is what CYMK + 1 spot (or metallic ink) gives now.

Typical old school decks are 4-color, but with modern tech that becomes 256 shades. Going to 5-color (easily done, and available now) give 3025 - but that's actually 16 shades or 50000 total 'apparent' colors, just like you can get 256 * 16 or 4096 shades of apparent color using 4-color. Old school printing didn't do that 16 shades per color, and frankly they didn't do much in the way of combinations, which is why the older decks or in general just plain 4 colors.

There is middle ground: Pantone has a 'truecolor' hexagraphic format that adds Green and Orange to CYMK giving CYMKGO for the primary colors and that's usable now, even though I haven't found the routines to do separations, I'm certain that they exist. When you submit files to print, the AI (Adobe Illustator) files are in full color, and the factory does the separations using software. The same would apply to this 6-color format and adding one spot color or metallic ink would require an 8 station press.

The basic Chromografix decks will have 750,000 colors minimum and likely be 16M+ faces, with backs still 50,000 shades. Those are 8-color plus 16 shades each. I already have spec'd out a Chromografix+ using 10-color that would be 10,000,000,000 and that's just crazy, but do-able, although I can't see any reason to do it. Adding 16 shades gives you 160 trillion color shades, and that's unrealistic because there are only Trying to look at the 12-color numbers is insane, giving 106,993,205,379,072 + 16 shades is 1,711,891,286,065,152 (yeah, 1.7 quintillion shades). Just not even reasonable since even using digital presses with the effective 1600dpi is 2.56 million dots per square inch and a sheet of 56 cards each with approximately 7 sq in per is total of 392 sq in printable, yielding a usable array of only 1,003,520,000 or slightly over 1 billion 'dots' effective on the entire uncut sheet. That means anything beyond 8-color is a waste, because you can't possibly print that many different colors on a single uncut even with the Chromografix+ 10-color process. That 8-color process is do-able, reasonable and sane. Anything more is just overkill - for now. If anyone can find me a digital press with effective 2000dpi+ - then we'll revisit those numbers. The fact is digital presses don't HAVE a DPI actually, that's why I keep saying 'equivalent' for resolution.

At 1600dpi effective (again, for reference, everything until a year ago mostly was 400dpi, now we're seeing some 600dpi equivalent) and these at 1600dpi equivalent are already pushing that to 16 times as much resolution as we were getting until no more than 2 years ago. Frankly, 1000dpi or 1200dpi equivalent seems reasonable to me. The first gives you an effective 7 million dots per card, the latter 10.8 million. I think that's pretty good!

Just being honest I think even the basic Chromografix specs are overkill, and would be very happy to do a 7-color + 1 (spot or metallic ink) at 1200dpi effective to start. You still get the same numbers, but you allow for metallic inks or the addition of a single spot color to make that single shade 'pop' on the cards. Either methodology would require you to reconfigure the standard 6-station Heidelberg press (digital versions - metric-specific extensions exist, but it can be done with analog press) into a 9-station press. Fortunately the recently manufactured ones are modular instead of one giant monolithic beast.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Sher wrote:According to the KS page, 330 gsm French casino stock.

Please don't ask me what that means, as I have no idea. I dont pay attention to those kind of things :P But if someone can explain, I'd be interested to know. :)
Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm saying this to be constructive: For a moderator on a cardistry forum, this is a shocking and borderline unacceptable comment. For the sake of your credibility, I would kindly suggest you start to pay attention and get caught up quickly on such basic fundamentals. Even if one is not a cardist but merely coming from a strictly collector's point of view, as a moderator you still have to have a fundamental grasp on the basics. Nobody is all-knowing, we all come here to learn, but the moderators here (who are all great) should be held to a higher standard if we want UC to be the premier cardistry forum.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

sinjin7 wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm saying this to be constructive: For a moderator on a cardistry forum, this is a shocking and borderline unacceptable comment. For the sake of your credibility, I would kindly suggest you start to pay attention and get caught up quickly on such basic fundamentals. Even if one is not a cardist but merely coming from a strictly collector's point of view, as a moderator you still have to have a fundamental grasp on the basics. Nobody is all-knowing, we all come here to learn, but the moderators here (who are all great) should be held to a higher standard if we want UC to be the premier cardistry forum.
"Merikuns just don't know WTH the metric system is, sinjin. That's well-known fact. Actually that particular nomenclature is misleading anyway, since it should be gm2 per the way they usually write things, but - it's metric. What can I say? I can speak metric, write in Euro-style numbers and all that - I have to, of course. My mom wouldn't understand if I couldn't, that's a fact. Filipino people are one of the very few exceptions outside the US that are strictly on the English measures in every way. Now, I won't get into Sher's family tree, but . . .
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Cbkimble »

sinjin7 wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm saying this to be constructive: For a moderator on a cardistry forum, this is a shocking and borderline unacceptable comment. For the sake of your credibility, I would kindly suggest you start to pay attention and get caught up quickly on such basic fundamentals. Even if one is not a cardist but merely coming from a strictly collector's point of view, as a moderator you still have to have a fundamental grasp on the basics. Nobody is all-knowing, we all come here to learn, but the moderators here (who are all great) should be held to a higher standard if we want UC to be the premier cardistry forum.
Why? Why should mods be held to a higher standard? In my opinion they're here to help. With Sher asking about the card stock, it helps others learn more about it and now she'll know how to answer in the future.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Exactly my point, and I mistyped twice, g/m2 is how grams per square meter fits with other ISO / metric abbreviations. They say there home is 150m2, for example.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Mike Ratledge wrote:"Merikuns just don't know WTH the metric system is, sinjin.
To me, Sher's comment had nothing to do with the metric system, but rather her indifference to stock. If I was mistaken, then I apologize for misinterpreting her statement. But I suspect I'm not mistaken.
Cbkimble wrote:Why? Why should mods be held to a higher standard? In my opinion they're here to help. With Sher asking about the card stock, it helps others learn more about it and now she'll know how to answer in the future.
For me, its a question of standards. If I go to a museum and the only thing the staff knows is how to direct me to the restrooms, but don't have a clue about the art, then I am going to have a low opinion of the low standards the museum set for their staff and won't go there often. If I go to a museum and the staff are knowledgeable and informative about the art as well as knowing where the restrooms are, then I will have a better experience at the museum and have a higher opinion of the museum's standards and selectivity in regards to the qualifications of their staff.

What kind of forum do you want this to be? What are your standards and expectations of UC? This is the only cardistry forum I am a member of. I don't go on any of the "other" sites. As I stated before, no one is all knowledgeable - not me, not Mike, not anyone. I like to think this is the "Best Place", the best museum if you will, for me to enjoy my experience and share and learn about cardistry, magic, and collecting. If this is to be the Best Place, then I would hope and expect the moderators at the best place should be held to a higher standard.

My comments are not meant to be a knock on Sher (who I feel is young, relatively new, but enthusiastic and passionate) or any of the other moderators here, many of whom I am friends with. Its strictly constructive criticism because I want UC to be that Best Place.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Lotrek »

I think a moderator's job is this: moderation! If I come with a message attacking someone in the most filthy way, the mod doesn't need to know what exactly 330 gsm French casino stock is to cut my message and keep the place clean!

That said, I think Sher is doing great job and although young, she's a very serious person, so I'm not the least bothered if she doesn't know (or even care) about what this paper is. :)
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by sinjin7 »

With all due respect, Lotrek, of course a moderator's job is to moderate. But that is the bare minimum. Why not expect more? Why not have higher standards? Is it really so much to ask for a moderator of a cardistry forum to have a fundamental understanding of just the basics at least?

It all comes down to standards. Is your standard excellence or just the lowest and basic common denominator?
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Godzillian »

sinjin7 wrote:With all due respect, Lotrek, of course a moderator's job is to moderate. But that is the bare minimum. Why not expect more? Why not have higher standards? Is it really so much to ask for a moderator of a cardistry forum to have a fundamental understanding of just the basics at least?

It all comes down to standards. Is your standard excellence or just the lowest and basic common denominator?
In that case, shouldn't every mod know the basics of cardistry? I.e. fans, one-handed fans, Charlier cuts, L-cuts, Pandora, Squeeze, Anaconda, etc etc...? Considering that this forum is called "UnitedCardists". I'm sure a few of the mods here don't know what or how to do some of these flourishes.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Lotrek »

sinjin7 wrote:With all due respect, Lotrek, of course a moderator's job is to moderate. But that is the bare minimum. Why not expect more? Why not have higher standards? Is it really so much to ask for a moderator of a cardistry forum to have a fundamental understanding of just the basics at least?

It all comes down to standards. Is your standard excellence or just the lowest and basic common denominator?
Well, my standard is excellence but don't forget that the mods here are volunteers. If you pay a mod $2000 -$3000 per month you may perfectly ask him/her to be a talented magician too, but since the job here is done for free, I think we can set the standard for excellence a bit lower... ;)
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Godzillian wrote:
sinjin7 wrote:With all due respect, Lotrek, of course a moderator's job is to moderate. But that is the bare minimum. Why not expect more? Why not have higher standards? Is it really so much to ask for a moderator of a cardistry forum to have a fundamental understanding of just the basics at least?

It all comes down to standards. Is your standard excellence or just the lowest and basic common denominator?
In that case, shouldn't every mod know the basics of cardistry? I.e. fans, one-handed fans, Charlier cuts, L-cuts, Pandora, Squeeze, Anaconda, etc etc...? Considering that this forum is called "UnitedCardists". I'm sure a few of the mods here don't know what or how to do some of these flourishes.
. . . and fortunately, I'm not a mod. ;)
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by sinjin7 »

Godzillian wrote:In that case, shouldn't every mod know the basics of cardistry? I.e. fans, one-handed fans, Charlier cuts, L-cuts, Pandora, Squeeze, Anaconda, etc etc...? Considering that this forum is called "UnitedCardists".
Exactly. This place is still called UnitedCardists, not UnitedCollectors. However, I'm not even suggesting every mod knows even the basics of cardistry (although that would be nice, that was how it was back in the day when this place was known as Decknique), but just the basics of what makes a playing card a playing card. Certainly its too much to ask a mod to be competent flourishers, but I don't think its too much for them to at least know the fundamental basics of card stock and finish. Again, basic standards at least.

Lotrek wrote:Well, my standard is excellence but don't forget that the mods here are volunteers. If you pay a mod $2000 -$3000 per month you may perfectly ask him/her to be a talented magician too, but since the job here is done for free, I think we can set the standard for excellence a bit lower... ;)
Just because you want to volunteer doesn't mean you automatically get to be a mod. Mike has the last say as to whether you have the qualifications to moderate a cardistry forum. But your point about the mods being unpaid volunteers is well taken. Maybe this just isn't the cardistry site I thought it was...

I don't want to hijack this thread too much. :) Congrats on your success with this stunning deck on KS.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Godzillian »

sinjin7 wrote:Maybe this just isn't the cardistry site I thought it was...
Since I found this website, I never really once thought this was a cardistry site lol. There's barely any posts made in the actual cardistry forum here. It's more "UnitedCardCollectors", really.

But yeah, back on topic. I CAN'T WAIT FOR THESE.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by Sher »

To clarify, I didn't know what 330gsm meant. I had no idea it meant "grams per square meter." However, I do admit that I have a very limited knowledge on card stock. I know there's Aristocrat and Bee stock with USPCC and that Bee is meant for casinos and are meant to be stiffer and last longer. However, I don't know the difference between Bee casino stock and French casino stock. Is there a range of gsm that makes a stock qualify as casino stock? Is Bee stock on specific gsm and French another?

I am not at all offended by sinjin's comment. It motivates me to learn more. :) I can definitely read up more on playing cards, but I'm not sure if I can meet the cardistry requirement. :P Lol I've actually been secretly trying some basic cardistry moves but I haven't committed to that (my hands are quite small so it's a bit more difficult for me).

EDIT: Thanks everyone for the kind words (including sinjin because he said I'm enthusiastic and passionate and I'm glad people can see that). I really really appreciate it. :) I'll definitely do my best to become more knowledgeable. I know some of you are okay with my limited knowledge, and I'm glad you feel that I am doing a great job as a mod, but sinjin has motivated me to be better, so I'll work on that. I'm only a collector, but I definitely want cardists and magicians to feel welcome on this forum. If there is any way I could help with that, I'm open to suggestions. :)

Also, I apologize for derailing this thread.

Lotrek, congratulations on your deck! :D :D :D :D :D I can't wait to receive mine. :drool: It will definitely be the pinnacle of my collection.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by badpete69 »

Sinjin I will show you what moderators are supposed to do. Some of us appreciate your comments but you have derailed the thread indeed and it's time to move on. Feel free to start a thread in the right section pondering the responsibilities of mods. And we can all debate it there. back to regular progamming
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday! (wa

Unread post by Cbkimble »

Congrats again Lotrek. I cant wait to get home and have these waiting for me.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - live on KS Wednesday!

Unread post by lriefer »

First, kudos to Sher on the grace with which she accepted the critique of her lack of knowledge.

Second, I can hardly wait to receive my Venexiana Gold decks. They will be the pinnacle of my collection too!
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours!

Unread post by Mike Ratledge »

Well, let me say this about that: after me teasing (no tormenting!) the heck out of everybody for almost a month, and then awarding the first and second prizes to Sher and MagikFingerz, I'd like to once again thank everyone for letting both myself (UC) and Lotrek make such a wonderful trip out of this. It's still in production, tomorrow he actually slices and dices, and them pops them into the tucks, shipping is going to start on Friday, most likely. That being said with worldwide registered mail included, for everybody's $90 or $100 (of which he got something like $80-$90 because of the KS fee and discount charged by PayPal no matter which place it sold - those 200 decks are - BY FAR - the best thing that has happened in the industry in quite some time. I don't like to compare apples and oranges, and there is - frankly - NOTHING to compare these two (well, unless you want to use Exquisite Bold). Nothing can be said about the quality - he went out of his way to insure that every single step along the way was both first class and painstakingly well done. For that we all owe him a big salute, and when you get your deck(s), remember: "You heard it here first", folks! That's going to continue. I'm in negotiations to do something else big - and as you know the clock is ticking on the CardLauncher opening, less that 25 days away, now.

Like I said, nothing can compare to these, but I know for a fact that every time Lotrek does something, he outdoes what he's done before: come, join us all on CL on 1-August when he unveils the Dark Venexiana decks, and remember - again - you heard it here first, and that's not all.
>Mike<
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They say "Ignorance is bliss". Obviously, some people are much happier than others...

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Lotrek
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours!

Unread post by Lotrek »

Thank you all guys and gals but check this please (and keep calm) :

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/un ... sts/904715" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Bite more than you can chew and then chew it"

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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours! (wap

Unread post by Cbkimble »

That is really terrible.
Feeding the addiction one deck at a time.
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volantangel
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours!

Unread post by volantangel »

oh boy, shit happens..
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours! (wap

Unread post by Lotrek »

Cbkimble wrote:That is really terrible.
Well, it's terrible for me since I have to go through it again but at least it's repairable. Even if "repair" here means reprint. I'm curious to see if I'll be able to make more than 3 good decks of the first print...
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours! (wap

Unread post by Cbkimble »

How did so many get through without them noticing?
Feeding the addiction one deck at a time.
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Re: SWTWC Part 5: Venexiana Gold - SOLD OUT - 17 hours!

Unread post by Godzillian »

Well this is terrible news. I'm sure most of us won't mind the wait. But when you said you had to eat double the cost... was that for prototype decks or for all 200 decks from the KS and UC sale? I can't imagine your monetary losses at this point...
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