UnitedCardists.com - The forum for Cardistry, Magic, Custom Decks and All Things Playing Cards.

Collecting custom playing cards is a luxury hobby. Some decks are more costly than others, while some decks are readily available and much more affordable to acquire. That really is part of the draw isn't it? There is so much choice. Everyone can find their niche and price range within the hobby.

It's good to see this campaign inspires such passions. It's an attention grabber.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:56 pm Thats precisely why we are putting this deck in a bundled tier only. Because we want true and real fans of the deck to get them.

I get where you're coming from, but it effectively shuts out people (like me) who can't drop multiple hundreds at a time. You're far from the only creator to reward people for large purchases, I just hate the practice overall.

Similarly I hate the arguments about how much better of a value it is per deck when you buy six, twelve, etc. at a time - sure it's better per deck, but you're already increasing the cost ~tenfold jumping from a single deck to a brick

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:56 pm The $135 price tag for a deck on the level of crypt is not exactly unprecedented.

The problem is there is no way for me to add on $135 and get this deck

I thought it was mentioned earlier that if someone pledged for a brick they would have access to the bottled (Prism) deck. Now it looks like that is no longer true as these decks will now be going to the added Premium Tier rewards.

yeah, although i love the decks, i only pledged a brick to get access to other decks add-on without wasting money on extra trinkets like metal plate and coins ects. If those got shut-out then no meaning to pledge a brick any more, may as well waiting for resale of the standard decks later, usually cheaper than KS also.

I suppose I could offer a tier of Brick + Treasured + Dynastinae + prism (155+45+95+135=$430) That way the folks who got in on the original premium tier feel a bit rewarded BUT i can assure there was NEVER a plan to sell the limited decks without having purchased the previous offerings. SO at best those extra trinkets (FYI its only the metal card and a gaff pack) would save you $35.

And All i can say is if you don't want to pledge I understand. Money is tight right now. I get it. I have to be judicious with how I spend my money too. I appreciate any and all support.

aznh wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:09 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:53 pm

hsbc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:47 pm "Want the most limited deck? Buy a brick!"

Unfortunately

pretty sad its gonna run ppl $470 for cards plus shipping

have to remember; not everything Lotrek creates sells at a higher premium on the after market so good luck with that for the ppl looking to flip

omar/lotrek, u both should really be ashamed of yourselves as greed has obviously gotten the best of u

guess lotrek is trying to make up for a year lost

Lmao what an incredibly misinformed and tone deaf comment.

I want to be one of the 200 to have the Prism Edition so bring it on..

To sum up and to make these comments worthwhile for consideration for future projects, there are two matters that are contradicting with one another:

1. With the rise of funding and more stretch goals met, the creator has to create new items/collectibles that were not available previously, at the same time due to the scarcity of those items the cost is significantly raised either by features or just the limited quantities for production. Prices for the older tiers may not be enough for those items produced, hence there are ways of raising funds for these items:

　　(a) Opening new premium tiers as funding continues to rise (this project): this forces backers who were already at the highest tiers to change tiers in the middle of the funding process.

　　(b) Using the add-on scheme for those specific items (the most common practice): regardless of what tier the backers are in, everyone gets an equal chance to add the funds to get those items. Downside is what Omar said, it benefits flip-sale resellers in the aftermarket.

2. In the case of 1.(a) like in this project, the problem is that having several stages of opening up new→newer→NEWER→NEWER!!! premium tiers as stretch goal rises and asking the people to fight for those tiers in the process, generates a crazy amount of stress for the backers with the fear of being left out once those tiers are opened. Plus the fact that this latest "premium-er" tier states that there will be no early bird price deals merged with the price, it's like a slap in the face for those premium backers who had already switched tiers for the "previously premium" tier. This is where it leaves a bad taste for the premium customers. Instead of backing and sitting back waiting for the funding period to end, they have to constantly check back for fear that they miss out for the next premium slot. At one point the fatigue---both chasing tiers or wallet hurt---will factor in and lesser and lesser people will be interested in the highest tier. This conduct won't be pleasing many high tier backers but may not mean much for lower tier backers.

So 1.(a) vs 2., as a creator, which do you weigh more?
Is there a better way to do it such as 1.(b)?

It's also worth considering whether adding certain high premium items ONLY for high tiers as a stretch goal is worth pursuing. There is also the option of upgrading the quality of standard items so every backer can be happy for their respective tiers. It's a brainstorming of whether to go for the tip of the pyramid, or to distribute the funds among the foundation.

Matters worth thinking through for any crowdfunding project.

PiazzaDelivery wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:18 pm

aznh wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:09 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:53 pm

hsbc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:47 pm "Want the most limited deck? Buy a brick!"

Unfortunately

pretty sad its gonna run ppl $470 for cards plus shipping

have to remember; not everything Lotrek creates sells at a higher premium on the after market so good luck with that for the ppl looking to flip

omar/lotrek, u both should really be ashamed of yourselves as greed has obviously gotten the best of u

guess lotrek is trying to make up for a year lost

Lmao what an incredibly misinformed and tone deaf comment.

hey uber eats or should i say skip-the-dishes

everyone is entitled to an opinion and sadly, so r u

keep on delivering ur pizza cuz ur going to need it for this NEW PREMIUM TIER that everyone so desperately needs

Im sure that extra sticker Omar throws in and calls it an "extra gift" should offset the overall cost

Wouldnt want to see a sticker add-on being offered for $10 but be included in the brick tiers now would we

This project suffers the problem of the creator wanting to make the most from a great designer. The standard offering was for 3 decks, which is already a lot, but then there are all of those limited/exclusive editions... this campaign is becoming a tremendous mess. It would be easier and probabilly more satisfatory for all backers if only 3 versions were offered, a standard, a collector's and a signature edition, making it easier to manage numbers, and also allowing for less exclusivity of said editions. To be honest I don't know already how many editions there are available and which ones are still to come. Just to confusing and time consuming for a KS campaign, we all have other things to do other than keeping an eye on this project to know if any other edition is about to come out and if we are entitled to add it...

Thank you sms69x well said

just release/show us what’s what and let people buy them without limiting the decks. Print what’s needed and move on. To much exclusivity

Decknowledgy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am In the case of 1.(a) like in this project, the problem is that having several stages of opening up new→newer→NEWER→NEWER!!! premium tiers as stretch goal rises and asking the people to fight for those tiers in the process, generates a crazy amount of stress for the backers with the fear of being left out once those tiers are opened. Plus the fact that this latest "premium-er" tier states that there will be no early bird price deals merged with the price, it's like a slap in the face for those premium backers who had already switched tiers for the "previously premium" tier. This is where it leaves a bad taste for the premium customers. Instead of backing and sitting back waiting for the funding period to end, they have to constantly check back for fear that they miss out for the next premium slot. At one point the fatigue---both chasing tiers or wallet hurt---will factor in and lesser and lesser people will be interested in the highest tier. This conduct won't be pleasing many high tier backers but may not mean much for lower tier backers.

Where did you get this information? It seems to me that first day premium backers are safe here. They have everything the new premium has for lower price, don't they? To cite Omar: "These new slots will NOT have the discount enjoyed by the previous Premium Tier backers. It will be a higher price. $470."

I originally pledged for the "one of each" tier and I was very happy with that. Until the quantity changed. Now I do not have one of each and I hate that. I personally like to pledge for a project and walk away. "Set it and forget it" so to speak. Sometimes projects have stretch goals so you have to keep an eye on them.

This project is out of control. If I cared more to own all these decks I'd be very stressed out- it's exhausting! What I dislike the most is the notion that this project wasn't going to hit all these funding goals. I know Omar acts very humble but I wish next time that he'd just realize BEFORE he launches the next project that he will crush it. No need for all these mid-project releases- just offer everything upfront, please!

Food for thought: Like I said, I checked out due to all the changes that were made since day one. Truth be told I don't even know if what I pledged for is even what I want but I'd rather just keep my pledge than have to navigate through this complex maze. However, if this project were less chaotic, I'd probably be more likely to spend more money.

masagin303 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:40 am

Decknowledgy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:59 am In the case of 1.(a) like in this project, the problem is that having several stages of opening up new→newer→NEWER→NEWER!!! premium tiers as stretch goal rises and asking the people to fight for those tiers in the process, generates a crazy amount of stress for the backers with the fear of being left out once those tiers are opened. Plus the fact that this latest "premium-er" tier states that there will be no early bird price deals merged with the price, it's like a slap in the face for those premium backers who had already switched tiers for the "previously premium" tier. This is where it leaves a bad taste for the premium customers. Instead of backing and sitting back waiting for the funding period to end, they have to constantly check back for fear that they miss out for the next premium slot. At one point the fatigue---both chasing tiers or wallet hurt---will factor in and lesser and lesser people will be interested in the highest tier. This conduct won't be pleasing many high tier backers but may not mean much for lower tier backers.

Where did you get this information? It seems to me that first day premium backers are safe here. They have everything the new premium has for lower price, don't they? To cite Omar: "These new slots will NOT have the discount enjoyed by the previous Premium Tier backers. It will be a higher price. $470."

I guess you're right
Had to reread Omar's update several times to understand the whole idea... When he said that "they will unfortunately only be available in new Premium slots I'm opening" and "Here's a breakdown of the new Complete Tempest Prismatic Tier," I understood it as a completely new tier that will be the only tier that holds the Prism Edition. It wasn't evidently clear whether the original Complete Tempest Tier would have the Prism or not, by calculation and deduction I guess there is. Probably the official KickStarter update needs to be clearer.

To my understanding, the whole point of the premium tier was not to worry with each update if it's time to switch or if I'm missing something. I certainly hope Omar will fulfill this expectation.

masagin303 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:39 am To my understanding, the whole point of the premium tier was not to worry with each update if it's time to switch or if I'm missing something. I certainly hope Omar will fulfill this expectation.

If you are in the premier tier you will get everything. Omar said that there are 97 left which excludes the 103 members in the premier tier. I think the discussion is for the people who aren't in that tier and how the rest of the 97 decks will be distributed fairly. Not an easy task

aznh wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:38 am

PiazzaDelivery wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:18 pm

aznh wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:09 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:53 pm

hsbc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:47 pm "Want the most limited deck? Buy a brick!"

Unfortunately

pretty sad its gonna run ppl $470 for cards plus shipping

have to remember; not everything Lotrek creates sells at a higher premium on the after market so good luck with that for the ppl looking to flip

omar/lotrek, u both should really be ashamed of yourselves as greed has obviously gotten the best of u

guess lotrek is trying to make up for a year lost

Lmao what an incredibly misinformed and tone deaf comment.

hey uber eats or should i say skip-the-dishes

everyone is entitled to an opinion and sadly, so r u

keep on delivering ur pizza cuz ur going to need it for this NEW PREMIUM TIER that everyone so desperately needs

Im sure that extra sticker Omar throws in and calls it an "extra gift" should offset the overall cost

Wouldnt want to see a sticker add-on being offered for $10 but be included in the brick tiers now would we

hey Ghost of Christmas Past or should I say low-rent theCapraAegagrus,

What's really sad here is that you're alleging greed without any real evidence. In card collecting circles, in COVID times and in general, that's a scathing claim that can stain the reputation of a creator. Your subjective idea of what the price ought to be is guided by what exactly... a high price tag? Maybe you should do the math yourself and check what these things cost before throwing out ridiculous and misinformed accusations.

Ease up on the name-calling, please. I don't want to have to start sending out warnings.

There are reasonable discussions going on here, let those take precedence without resorting to ad-hominems.

I’m sorry if the information hasn’t been clear. The UC thread must bear with being my Petrie dish. In that way I thank you for talking things out and through with me.

To clarify and dispel any confusion: Premium Tier backers NEED NOT worry you WILL get the prism deck.

The new tier at $475 was only a more expensive version of the same thing the premium tier backers got sight unseen. I wanted to reward their early backing. However I can see how this could be confusing. Instead I’m going to open up a new tier. Premium tier LITE. 97 at $415 but not offer the additional metal card or gaff pack.

Here’s the prism edition.

Holy shit that is pretty

bdawg923 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:08 pm Holy shit that is pretty

Also the first an only time to date Lotrek has used holofoil

Omar,

Saw this in the comments

We will be opening some new tiers however Any tiers with the Dynastinae will also have the treasured edition within it. We will likely open a) 100 tempest Dynastinae/treasured sets with 1 each of ocean,dusk and midnight. B) 250 half brick plus treasured and Dynastinae and c) 300 full brick sets with Dynastinae and treasure added.

As a brick backer am I going to have to switch tiers for Dynastinae and NOT just add $95?

And to play Devil's advocate, what if all the stretch goals aren't met? You have 10 days to go and you've kind of flat-lined.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:10 pm

bdawg923 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:08 pm Holy shit that is pretty

Also the first an only time to date Lotrek has used holofoil

ya that is unreal. I think I will be breaking my bottle as well.... maybe

Ice_Panda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:20 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:10 pm

bdawg923 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:08 pm Holy shit that is pretty

Also the first an only time to date Lotrek has used holofoil

ya that is unreal. I think I will be breaking my bottle as well.... maybe

Bottle is optional now.

As far as greed is concerned:

There is a significant difference between "I need" and "I want". Sometimes people who badly want something confuse the two words. Nobody needs a $5000 bag. Nobody needs a $200000 car. And certainly nobody needs luxury playing cards. But there are people who WANT these things and some of these people can also afford them.
Now, what makes an item "expensive"? In my opinion two things:
1) Greed, indeed: "Hmm, I'm famous with lotsa fans so I'll buy 50000 t-shirts from Bangladesh for $0,50 each, I'll print "Lotrek The Great" on them and will sell them for $15 each. Hehe, the suckers will buy them! After that I'll do the same with baseball hats".
2) Cost and effort. Whether it has to do with expensive materials, numerous working hours, original inventions which involve experiments that take serious money to the trash bin or doing again and again the same thing until you feel it's perfect. There is a reason why a dinner at Ferran Andria's restaurant costed $400 per person. I wish we could go there with Melina when it was open but we couldn't afford it. This doesn't make Andria a greedy person. (Btw the restaurant closed because apparently the prices weren't high enough to cover the costs...)

When I produce one of our "crazy" decks, I give hundreds of hours in design, testing and printing. Of course I love what I do and that's the reason I do it but it's a mess and that mess has to be compensated.
Based on my calculations, I make less money by selling expensive decks to fewer people.

But I'm greedy for beauty, that's true.

RichK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:17 pm Omar,

Saw this in the comments

We will be opening some new tiers however Any tiers with the Dynastinae will also have the treasured edition within it. We will likely open a) 100 tempest Dynastinae/treasured sets with 1 each of ocean,dusk and midnight. B) 250 half brick plus treasured and Dynastinae and c) 300 full brick sets with Dynastinae and treasure added.

As a brick backer am I going to have to switch tiers for Dynastinae and NOT just add $95?

And to play Devil's advocate, what if all the stretch goals aren't met? You have 10 days to go and you've kind of flat-lined.

I think for the sake of sanity and making sure we don’t over commit decks I am going to require everyone who wants a Dynastinae to switch tiers. I know it’s not an elegant solution but until Kickstarter adapts the add on function more fully it will have to be this way. I’ll give everyone ample warning. Along with pics of the deck of course.

The prism edition will probably go live at the same time.

Regarding the stretch goals ... you are right we have plateaued (I don’t think 140k is flatlined. Lol). However what We are going to do is eat the cost of the new editions in hopes that they sell well thereby fronting the stretch goals. In the end if the Dynastinae and prism sell out then we are fine. And I think eventually they will.

You guys got this! Im glad Im on for the ride. Thanks for all your hard work, both of you!

RichK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Ice_Panda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:20 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:10 pm

bdawg923 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:08 pm Holy shit that is pretty

Also the first an only time to date Lotrek has used holofoil

ya that is unreal. I think I will be breaking my bottle as well.... maybe

Bottle is optional now.

Actually we did away with it. It was too much of a headache and expensive to produce and ship. Instead we put the money into making the deck—now the Prism—the most beautiful and luxurious edition we have. I will be offering tempest in the bottle with the standard editons as an addon for those who still might be interested.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:26 pm

RichK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:17 pm Omar,

Saw this in the comments

We will be opening some new tiers however Any tiers with the Dynastinae will also have the treasured edition within it. We will likely open a) 100 tempest Dynastinae/treasured sets with 1 each of ocean,dusk and midnight. B) 250 half brick plus treasured and Dynastinae and c) 300 full brick sets with Dynastinae and treasure added.

As a brick backer am I going to have to switch tiers for Dynastinae and NOT just add $95?

And to play Devil's advocate, what if all the stretch goals aren't met? You have 10 days to go and you've kind of flat-lined.

I think for the sake of sanity and making sure we don’t over commit decks I am going to require everyone who wants a Dynastinae to switch tiers. I know it’s not an elegant solution but until Kickstarter adapts the add on function more fully it will have to be this way. I’ll give everyone ample warning. Along with pics of the deck of course.

The prism edition will probably go live at the same time.

Regarding the stretch goals ... you are right we have plateaued (I don’t think 140k is flatlined. Lol). However what We are going to do is eat the cost of the new editions in hopes that they sell well thereby fronting the stretch goals. In the end if the Dynastinae and prism sell out then we are fine. And I think eventually they will.

Yes, 140K is a bad flatline. lol.

Thanks for the tier swap info. The Dynastinae and prism tiers will most likely sell out.

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:29 pm

RichK wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Ice_Panda wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:20 pm

TheGentlemanWake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:10 pm

bdawg923 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:08 pm Holy shit that is pretty

Also the first an only time to date Lotrek has used holofoil

ya that is unreal. I think I will be breaking my bottle as well.... maybe

Bottle is optional now.

Actually we did away with it. It was too much of a headache and expensive to produce and ship. Instead we put the money into making the deck—now the Prism—the most beautiful and luxurious edition we have. I will be offering tempest in the bottle with the standard editons as an addon for those who still might be interested.

Hmm, any idea on cost yet? And would we be able to choose the deck that's bottled? And for premium tier backers, is it on of our brick decks or another (16th) deck?