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Playing card factories can't do this :

https://en.vrijdag.nl/techniques/hot_foil_stamping" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click the link above and the 'Printing Techniques' tab. When we met with Jirs at his offices at Cartamundi in Belgium, I was there with the Sales Director of Vrijdag Premium Printing. Jirs said (and I quote) "we could not do what you're doing".

VXD wrote:Playing card factories can't do this :

https://en.vrijdag.nl/techniques/hot_foil_stamping" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click the link above and the 'Printing Techniques' tab. When we met with Jirs at his offices at Cartamundi in Belgium, I was there with the Sales Director of Vrijdag Premium Printing. Jirs said (and I quote) "we could not do what you're doing".

MPC, WJPC,NPCC, TWPCC, Longpack, EPCC,  LPCC - All these have done hot foiled playing card decks.  Brahma - A Playing Card Company in India can do hot foil too.

You can't generalize Playing Card factories by giving an example of Cartamundi as above.

I've not done any business with Cartamundi as yet. Foil is okay but I focus on art and my personal belief is that good art is not dependent on application of single or multiple foils. Just mentioning it here that I do understand that what you are doing is great but I felt few of the statements above were incorrect or lacked proper due diligence or details and this is why I put forth my points as above.

Guru

There's a big difference between some of these companies trying hot foiling (particularly just on tucks - very common) or even just a simple stamp (one metal plate) on all 54 card backs, to producing a 'hot foil deck' like I'm talking about. The difference being, these companies will never invest in one of these machines (below), which is precisely what is needed and we use. I asked around about the cost for this Bobst Masterfoil machine and it's 1.5 Million Euro. And it's sole purpose is (high-speed, perfectly registered) quality hot-foiling.

And my point, which you outright said was 'Incorrect', was this:

Playing card factories DO NOT do high-end print-finishing
High-end print-finishers DO NOT do playing cards (yet)

As a generalisation / rule (99%), that statement is true.

I'll take a bet with you now that in 5-10 years time, most of the top designers (of custom playing cards) will be working with Print Finishers, rather than playing card factories. It makes sense, because these print finishers can easily do what playing card factories do, but the reverse does not apply. Plus a top-end print finisher is set up business-model wise to produce smaller runs of high value product, which better suits the direction that the (custom) playing card market is going. The only 'trade secret' that playing card factories possessed (until recently) was their card-sorting machines, but these days with China reverse-engineering simple machines and the power of web searches and easy communication, that barrier is gone. The rest is a piece of cake. And CHEAP. Card sorting machine = $50K. Cutting machine = $110K. Cello-wrapping = less (but not exactly sure). Compared to a $1.5M machine.

Remember, Cartamundi etc make most of their cash from selling very basic cards to casinos. 90% of revenues. Custom playing cards is not their focus at all and they cannot survive easily by just supplying the custom playing card market. Too many of them too.

Give it a few years....you'll see the shift. Bets?

I remembered we had this on Instagram....

Joris and I, in front of the Bobst Masterfoil we used for the Vertex Deck back in 2017. There are only 3 of these (Swiss-made) machines in the whole of Europe. One in Germany, one in Holland and one in Italy. This one pictured was the one in Germany. After problems with Vertex Deck cards production (being overcharged, mainly), I contacted the owners of the one in Holland (Vrijdag Premium Printing) for the Vegas Diffractor and since then we print with them. They are really great people and the Director is really into our project and innovation in general. He is super proactive and is always offering us new features and finish ideas too, which we will be adding in to our Diffractors shortly (starting with foil micro-embossing). We also have racks of different patterned holographic foils to choose from too - we specified a 'frost' holographic foil for our Frozen Metal deck coming up, as some will be aware. Dust-bronzing is also something we're looking at, plus printing entirely in RGB (which I don't get still even after he explained the science to me 2 or 3 times, but it does look awesome).

Anyway, in short, much more industry-first stuff is coming your way
.......

I had fun googling the printing machine and looking at some of their videos. I particularly enjoyed the one for the attachment that did high speed folding and insertion in boxes. The speed of that thing is insane. It is good that you have one of the printers that really is interested in your project and is looking at ways to innovate with you. Having the right tools makes everything go so much easier. Having a vendor engaged in your project is just essential. I am also a big believe in vendor sourcing. The more you know the folks you work with, the better. That is one reason I like to see photos of Lotrek around when his printing is being done. Lotrek isn't a printer, but he does know what he wants. Plus, getting to know the printers, you learn more about what new things are possible.

My company does tons of high speed printing, but not that type of specialized printing. Mainly high speed black and high speed color printing. It is always fun to watch them run with those huge spools of paper on one end and boxed product on the other end. That machine though takes it to a whole different level. Which it should at 1.5 Million euro. At that kind of investment, it better stay busy all the time.

Brad

I can tell you know your stuff and appreciate the machines. I'm fascinated too. I love the technical side of it.

My introduction to the printing world was basketball trading cards....I collected Michael Jordan cards from about 1992-1997 (still have them all) and I was obsessed with the printing techs that were happening. I spent years trying to get my hands on the next innovative sparkly MJ card. Topps, Fleer, Upper Deck, Skybox etc...they all had their new techs coming out and outdoing each other. The 'hobby' has never looked back since that explosion of printing techs, starting in the mid nineties. Evolution.

The custom playing card collectors market is not as mature as the trading card market. We're many years behind, but it is inevitably on a similar trajectory. Not saying it will ever be a market the size of the trading cards market...I'm sure it won't, but it has very many similarities and LOTS can be learned from looking at the trading cards market.

This discussion lines up well IMO with an interview Lee Asher did that was posted here

Consequently, I believe the next ten years will usher in innovative improvements to stocks and finishes.

guru wrote:... Longpack ... Brahma - A Playing Card Company in India

What are these companies? Where can I get decks printed by them?

Thanks for the link hsbc, that was an interesting read and yes, I'm in agreement with his opinions regarding this next decade within the custom playing cards industry, 100%.

VXD wrote:Guru

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I'll take a bet with you now that in 5-10 years time, most of the top designers (of custom playing cards) will be working with Print Finishers, rather than playing card factories. It makes sense, because these print finishers can easily do what playing card factories do, but the reverse does not apply. Plus a top-end print finisher is set up business-model wise to produce smaller runs of high value product, which better suits the direction that the (custom) playing card market is going. The only 'trade secret' that playing card factories possessed (until recently) was their card-sorting machines, but these days with China reverse-engineering simple machines and the power of web searches and easy communication, that barrier is gone. The rest is a piece of cake. And CHEAP. Card sorting machine = $50K. Cutting machine = $110K. Cello-wrapping = less (but not exactly sure). Compared to a $1.5M machine.

Remember, Cartamundi etc make most of their cash from selling very basic cards to casinos. 90% of revenues. Custom playing cards is not their focus at all and they cannot survive easily by just supplying the custom playing card market. Too many of them too.

Give it a few years....you'll see the shift. Bets?

Sorry, I missed this and would love to bet on this. I am good sport & it will just be fun to come back after 5 years ( 10 years sound too far ahead), and use this same thread and conversation again. I have already bookmarked this post and put up a reminder for May 4th, 2025. Why not May 3rd? Because I like 4th more.

It will also be great to still have UC and all these folks that are regulars now. And to be specifically clear, after 5 years, the most of the designers of custom playing card deck will still be printing their decks (some already do their tucks with them so that rules out and here we are talking about cards) through playing card factories and not print finishers.

I think it will be great for both of us to come back after 5 years and comment on the current situation then.

May the fourth be with you.

hsbc wrote:

guru wrote:... Longpack ... Brahma - A Playing Card Company in India

What are these companies? Where can I get decks printed by them?

I had spare Archdukes from Brahma but these were claimed by two of the forum members here, and I do not have any spares left apart from my collection.

Jackson was to print his 5 Stack deck ( along with the board game) through Longpack but I don't think that the Kickstarter succeeded.

-staying tuned-

Good on you....you're on. I did say 5-10 years, so you'll have won the bet if by 2030 May 4th most are still using playing card factories rather than print finishers for their custom playing card offerings.

I don't mind sticking my neck out on this 'apparent' long shot (fundamental shift in the industry).

One big issue currently in using printers, other than printers that specialize in playing cards is in the very important area of handling. Printers that do not specialize in printing cards really don't have a good way to finish playing cards properly. Whether that can be fixed in a decade, I don't know. However, that is one of the biggest problems with using a regular printing facility for playing card production.

Brad

You're 100% right (along with cutting and sorting too). The 3 main challenges for a print finisher. Sorting & cutting can be overcome very easily....with minimal training and $150K cash for the machines.

The slip coating and general 'finish' (in the sense you mean it), is a process of finding the best coatings available on the market (not too difficult) and then trial & error in applying to different board & textures etc and testing the handling. This takes a bit of time....but not 10 years

The barriers other way round....immense.

Work ongoing. The luxury master is currently doing his thing

KS campaign = June / July 2021

VXD wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:59 am Work ongoing. The luxury master is currently doing his thing

KS campaign = June / July 2021

Would the London metal and cube fulfill before the new KS? I would definitely back the new project, but I think it would gain people's confidence if the previous project has been shipped.

Saw the pics of the London, great works!!!

Of course yes. That is exactly how it’s planned.

I'm still waiting on the Las Vegas Deck (since November 2019), despite several pms, no response. With London still to fulfil I'm not holding my breath, even with Lotrek on board.

BLuemantra....is that one of the instagram (goldcello) giveaway decks? let me look into it. I'll PM you here. But know that there are places we can't ship to due to Covid. Maybe that is the reason.

Any relativity physicists here? Just curious if they know what happens when two black wholes of delay collide together ;>

A singulargity.

rousselle wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:01 pm A singulargity.

A singuldisparity?

I believe time and space fold in on themselves and all moments and points in space converge - in which case the decks should have already arrived in your mailbox and your mailbox should have arrived in your lap…

I am definitely interested in what Lotrek will bring to the design.

Bradius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:59 pm I am definitely interested in what Lotrek will bring to the design.

Agree fully. Design was the one notable absence from the diffractor series of decks. Lotrek has this in ‘Spades’ (pun intended). With this amazing tech, and what will doubtlessly be awesome design, delays aside they would have to be trying pretty hard for this NOT to be a world beater. I’m tipping this to be HUGE.

Monte Carlo Diffractor launches at 09:00 PST / 12:00 EST / 17:00 GMT / 18:00 CET on 23rd September.

Link will be posted when it's available. We hope to see you there!