Tenebre Playing Cards by 4PM Designs - KS Funded!

[Mike Ratledge]

There is no NDA. I have seen quotes, but again, not my place to do a reveal. Let's just say that halfway through Grotesque, Lotrek was close to despondent when he saw what he was leaving on the table, but we just couldn't "switch horse in the middle of the stream".

Despondent is overstated - disappointed and upset? That works better. In general for an equal amount and quality EPCC will save you 30% or maybe more and maybe that is why none of the Designers want to give hard numbers. Of course, the tendency is always to get more bells and whistles, so you end up saving not as much. Bill's pricing is much more straightforward and you need to take into account that setup and per plate charges per color are the same for a 1000 deck run as for 2500 (or 50000 for that matter).

[Strag]

As Paul and others have pointed out, EPCC/LPCC will allow a 1000 print run, whereas USPCC minimum is 2500. So if startup costs are about the same, then 1000 decks would cost less than 2500, unless EPCC et al charge more per deck than USPCC. Then there's shipping. I'm sure it costs a lot less to ship 2500 decks to Chicago, or Tennessee than it does to ship them from Taiwan to the port, then overland to wherever they are going.

Tom is right, though...awfully quiet from the people who DO know.

I've seen it said in a few places that EPCC chargles less than USPCC but I have no idea what that exactly means or how it relates to tucks.

I am also disturbed by the recent upward trend on pricing. I've tentatively backed for 2 but I'm likely to pull out as $23 per deck just isn't sitting right (I'm international of course). I have only ever spent more than that for 3 KS decks (Oracle LE, Fed 42 Unbranded Blacks and Imperial Black) and I just don't know about this one.

[SBurk49]

Ok some of yall need to look up a term called tl;dr

Seriously. Make your points concise. I value your opinion but only when its less than 2 paragraphs. lol

[Encarded]

I think part of the "problem" is that there are so many projects on Kickstarter, with so many people using it, and they all copy each others project structures, so the prices of $10-12 are fixed in everyones mind.

If you want all the eyeballs and "easy crowd" of Kickstarter then you pay for it in less flexibility on what the crowd will accept.

If you want to do it all your own, market everything yourself, pay for it all yourself, and rely on no one then the market perceives you differently. Consequently, pricing can be different. There is also a large variance in how a good is marketed. If it is presented as a truly limited collectible thing, there is no chance of further versions, if it's made "special" in those intangible ways then no one balks at a price that reflects that character. It's a complicated beast, this marketing thing. (I've long ago lost track of the countless hours spent pondering all of these things).

In the same volumes, EPCC costs less than USPCC. Very simple. But since the fixed costs don't change, if you produce less decks the costs per deck rise.

(Also, a fun fact: it cost less to ship 1000 decks from Taiwan a
than it did to ship those same decks via UPS from NY to Florida.)

[Mike Ratledge]

Paul, does EPCC (and Legends PCC) ship in master boxes of a gross (12 bricks) like we are used to getting from USPCC? Just curious. You got 7 boxes if that's true, and one was 8 decks "short".

[Mike Ratledge]

Ok some of yall need to look up a term called tl;dr

Seriously. Make your points concise. I value your opinion but only when its less than 2 paragraphs. lol

Tl;dr? You've got me there. Mistyped? My fat fingers do it all the time on the phone.

I suppose a bit of it is my fault since I announced that I bought us unlimited bandwidth and storage space for two years in advance, but - everybody COULD clean up the quotes to include only the relevant portion...

[Sher]

Ok some of yall need to look up a term called tl;dr

Seriously. Make your points concise. I value your opinion but only when its less than 2 paragraphs. lol

Tl;dr? You've got me there. Mistyped? My fat fingers do it all the time on the phone.

I suppose a bit of it is my fault since I announced that I bought us unlimited bandwidth and storage space for two years in advance, but - everybody COULD clean up the quotes to include only the relevant portion...

TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read"

[rousselle]

TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read"

It's how the Twitter generation indicates that their attentSQUIRREL!

[Sher]

TL;DR means "Too long; didn't read"

It's how the Twitter generation indicates that their attentSQUIRREL!

LMAO.

[CordedTires]

I can't believe you haven't run into this before, Mike. There's nothing like spending time explaining something to someone and have them come back with tl;dr. My students even do it. Enough to send me into a depressive funk.

[Sher]

I personally like long and detailed explanations. Sometimes I ask too many questions because the response wasn't detailed enough for me.

Also, my responses tend not to be very long. I do try and be as concise as possible, but when I was making that long post I felt the need to elaborate, otherwise the counterargument would be something I had already thought of (the part with CARC and theory11). I don't think my point would have come across as clearly.

[nECr0MaNCeD]

It's how the Twitter generation indicates that their attent...SQUIRREL!

Too funny. And true. Sometimes a detailed explanation is needed.

[Mike Ratledge]

Well, everybody knows that I like to type-type-type-type-type-type-type. ;^) Let's get this thread back on-topic!

[nECr0MaNCeD]

Ok, the boss has cracked his whip. Back on topic.

It just so happens that 4PM is in the same town in NJ that my Mom lives in. With any luck they will let me pick them up in person.

[Maddest Hammer]

I'm in for four, may cut it in half. The backs look great, but I wish they'd customize their courts a little more. I do like the side opening tuck, although I think if you're really going to do a custom deck, a custom tuck should be part of the fun

[Sher]

I do like the side opening tuck, although I think if you're really going to do a custom deck, a custom tuck should be part of the fun

I completely agree with you!

[nECr0MaNCeD]

I've read every post in this thread. I've stayed out of the discussions concerning cost/selling price. Mostly because I am new and didn't really have anything to add. I don't know a whole lot about production costs and such. I can say this. What I am willing to pay for a deck is based on the cards and tuck. What I perceive as beauty. My sense of value is based on the art itself, not economics. This is not to say I disagree with anyone else, it's just my own viewpoint.

[MagikFingerz]

I've read every post in this thread. I've stayed out of the discussions concerning cost/selling price. Mostly because I am new and didn't really have anything to add. I don't know a whole lot about production costs and such. I can say this. What I am willing to pay for a deck is based on the cards and tuck. What I perceive as beauty. My sense of value is based on the art itself, not economics. This is not to say I disagree with anyone else, it's just my own viewpoint.

I think that differs for a lot of people, particularly the artists. I would say that since it is a mass-produced product, it would be wrong to base it solely on the artwork. Of course, at the same time it would be wrong to base it solely on economics because it has an artistic element to it. A painting can't really be compared to other paintings because it is a single unique piece of art, and toaster can very easily be compared to other toasters because it is a mass-produced product with a practical function. Playing cards are somewhere in between. And since there are rules and traditions to card design, it is also easier to distinguish between "good" and "bad" card designs compared to other works of art (though I guess art and design are two different concepts).

So... yeah. There's my 2 cents

[nECr0MaNCeD]

I think that differs for a lot of people, particularly the artists. I would say that since it is a mass-produced product, it would be wrong to base it solely on the artwork. Of course, at the same time it would be wrong to base it solely on economics because it has an artistic element to it. A painting can't really be compared to other paintings because it is a single unique piece of art, and toaster can very easily be compared to other toasters because it is a mass-produced product with a practical function. Playing cards are somewhere in between. And since there are rules and traditions to card design, it is also easier to distinguish between "good" and "bad" card designs compared to other works of art (though I guess art and design are two different concepts).

So... yeah. There's my 2 cents

excellent points and I agree with most of them. I guess what it boils down to is how people perceive value... and beauty to some extent. There are a great multitude of people who think Apple computers are art and a good value. I hate the things and think they are over priced.

[MagikFingerz]

I think that differs for a lot of people, particularly the artists. I would say that since it is a mass-produced product, it would be wrong to base it solely on the artwork. Of course, at the same time it would be wrong to base it solely on economics because it has an artistic element to it. A painting can't really be compared to other paintings because it is a single unique piece of art, and toaster can very easily be compared to other toasters because it is a mass-produced product with a practical function. Playing cards are somewhere in between. And since there are rules and traditions to card design, it is also easier to distinguish between "good" and "bad" card designs compared to other works of art (though I guess art and design are two different concepts).

So... yeah. There's my 2 cents

excellent points and I agree with most of them. I guess what it boils down to is how people perceive value... and beauty to some extent. There are a great multitude of people who think Apple computers are art and a good value. I hate the things and think they are over priced.

Completely agree on Apple. But yes, the art aspect of cards will always be a matter of perception and subjective opinion. Case in point, the comparison of this deck to Zenith. Same materials, same printer, same (ish) print run. Take away the art and this one is cheaper and comes with a pack jacket, although Zenith's foiled boxes probably make up for some of that. Then compare the amount of complaints about the price on each.

Btw this is not meant to put neither Tenebre nor Zenith in a bad light, I like and have bought both. It's just an interesting way of looking at things and how people react to different things.

[vasta41]

I think that differs for a lot of people, particularly the artists. I would say that since it is a mass-produced product, it would be wrong to base it solely on the artwork. Of course, at the same time it would be wrong to base it solely on economics because it has an artistic element to it. A painting can't really be compared to other paintings because it is a single unique piece of art, and toaster can very easily be compared to other toasters because it is a mass-produced product with a practical function. Playing cards are somewhere in between. And since there are rules and traditions to card design, it is also easier to distinguish between "good" and "bad" card designs compared to other works of art (though I guess art and design are two different concepts).

So... yeah. There's my 2 cents

excellent points and I agree with most of them. I guess what it boils down to is how people perceive value... and beauty to some extent. There are a great multitude of people who think Apple computers are art and a good value. I hate the things and think they are over priced.

I used to work at Geek Squad and we sold a bunch of RAM. "Special" Mac RAM was a good $50+ more than "regular" RAM, and the difference? None! But Apple knows people will buy it. And they'll continue to do it so long as people buy it. But why do people by it? Because they put the fancy Apple logo on it. I guess I'm comparing apples (pun intended!) and oranges here but my point is artists/ creators can charge what they'd like as long as some sort of market exists.

I personally think that exclusivity is a huge reason why people spend bucket-loads of cash on playing cards. I spent a few hundred to get a Jerry's Nugget deck a while back- not because it's beautiful (though it is, just not as beautiful as some other decks I have). But because I can now say I own a JNugg!

And to get back on track, I think $18 is a little high but I'd buy it because I think what I'd be buying is worth it. Cool deck and sweet tuck! I love the recent tuck case innovations.

[SuicideKing]

But yes, the art aspect of cards will always be a matter of perception and subjective opinion. Case in point, the comparison of this deck to Zenith. Same materials, same printer, same (ish) print run. Take away the art and this one is cheaper and comes with a pack jacket, although Zenith's foiled boxes probably make up for some of that. Then compare the amount of complaints about the price on each.

From a collector (and a bit economic) point of view, there is a big difference between Zenith and Tenebre.

Zenith: "There are no other editions, no other box designs, no other colors and it won't be printed again."

Tenebre: "If this is called the Rosso Edition, does that mean there will be more? Well, hopefully, that's the plan. All new editions will remain limited to the one time printing by the LPCC."

So even without the art aspect, Zenith "worth" more. My 2 cents...

[MagikFingerz]

Good point, although for now those are just words. They won't actually have any significance until new editions of Tenebre (and no new editions of Zenith) has appeared (and I'm assuming "All new editions will remain limited to the one time printing by the LPCC" means that each separate edition will not be reprinted). Of course, I have no doubt that Paul will be true to his word, but it is IMO a "less quantifiable factor" in the present. Still part of the equation though.

[SuicideKing]

True! I prefer a statement of "one edition only" than a "can be hundred of them", but it's true that those are just word. But like you, I trust Paul.

[sinjin7]

Both the Tenebre and Zenith decks are made by EPCC, that is the basis by which I feel BOTH decks are over-priced. I bought the Zenith anyways because the beauty of the design outweighed my feeling that I'm not getting the most bang for my buck. I'm not at that point with the Tenebre, which is why I'm passing for the moment.

When assessing "value" for a deck, of course there is a huge subjective element involved. If I think a deck is beautiful and it turns me on, I'll be willing to pay a premium for it. However, there has to be a qualitative element to it as well. If I can get a beautiful, well designed deck with a fancy tuck box for $10-$12 that's made by the USPCC, why would I pay a similarly beautiful, well designed deck with a fancy tuck box for $18-$20? Of course not all things are equal and black and white like that example, but the principle still remains.

At this point, some of you will be thinking, "But the Zenith and Tenebre decks are limited. Only 1000 made". One of the most overrated aspects of modern card collecting is the concept of anything being "limited". Its "limited" only because the maker arbitrarily decided to make a specific number of them, that's all. And in the world of collecting in general, 1000 of any item is a pretty big number, not exactly rare. Add in the fact that anyone now can make 1000 deck print runs at the EPCC, then that further devalues other decks that are made in that "limited" amount because now anyone can do it. At least before the EPCC, it was actually very difficult to print a quantity of decks of acceptable quality that was under a printing run of 2500, or it was prohibitively expensive to do so. So in the past, for you to find a deck that was part of a print run of "only" 1000 was not common, or they were extremely expensive. And again, 1000 is not that small of a number. Sooner or later, collectors will catch on as more designers move towards making decks cheaper at the EPCC and in these lower quantities, and realize that decks produced in runs of 1000 aren't in fact rare or limited after all and the market will eventually correct.

Kudos to Paul and 4PM for being ahead of the curve and cashing in while they can.

[vasta41]

Both the Tenebre and Zenith decks are made by EPCC, that is the basis by which I feel BOTH decks are over-priced. I bought the Zenith anyways because the beauty of the design outweighed my feeling that I'm not getting the most bang for my buck. I'm not at that point with the Tenebre, which is why I'm passing for the moment.

When assessing "value" for a deck, of course there is a huge subjective element involved. If I think a deck is beautiful and it turns me on, I'll be willing to pay a premium for it. However, there has to be a qualitative element to it as well. If I can get a beautiful, well designed deck with a fancy tuck box for $10-$12 that's made by the USPCC, why would I pay a similarly beautiful, well designed deck with a fancy tuck box for $18-$20? Of course not all things are equal and black and white like that example, but the principle still remains.

At this point, some of you will be thinking, "But the Zenith and Tenebre decks are limited. Only 1000 made". One of the most overrated aspects of modern card collecting is the concept of anything being "limited". Its "limited" only because the maker arbitrarily decided to make a specific number of them, that's all. And in the world of collecting in general, 1000 of any item is a pretty big number, not exactly rare. Add in the fact that anyone now can make 1000 deck print runs at the EPCC, then that further devalues other decks that are made in that "limited" amount because now anyone can do it. At least before the EPCC, it was actually very difficult to print a quantity of decks of acceptable quality that was under a printing run of 2500, or it was prohibitively expensive to do so. So in the past, for you to find a deck that was part of a print run of "only" 1000 was not common, or they were extremely expensive. And again, 1000 is not that small of a number. Sooner or later, collectors will catch on as more designers move towards making decks cheaper at the EPCC and in these lower quantities, and realize that decks produced in runs of 1000 aren't in fact rare or limited after all and the market will eventually correct.

Kudos to Paul and 4PM for being ahead of the curve and cashing in while they can.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying but I beg to differ on one aspect- though 1,000 isn't that small of a number, it's largely smaller than the number of playing card collectors out there. Even smaller than the number of collectors interested in a specific deck, take this one for example. So doing the simple math, I think the word 'small' or "limited" for that matter in this case means that theres just not enough decks to go around. For what that's worth.

[sinjin7]

You make a fair point, but by your logic, if there was, say, 2000 card collectors, then any deck produced in printing runs of less than 1999 is rare and limited.

This is the way I view it: If there are 10,000 card collectors all looking for 1000 decks, is that really "rare" or "limited"? Perhaps. If there are 10,000 collectors all looking for 500 decks, is that rare/limited? Probably. But if there are 10,000 collectors all competing for only 100 decks, is that rare/limited? Absolutely. There is "rare/limited", and then there is really rare/limited.

[vasta41]

You make a fair point, but by your logic, if there was, say, 2000 card collectors, then any deck collectors would want produced in printing runs of less than 1999 is rare and limited.

This is the way I view it: If there are 10,000 card collectors all looking for 1000 decks, is that really "rare" or "limited"? Perhaps. If there are 10,000 collectors all looking for 500 decks, is that rare/limited? Probably. But if there are 10,000 collectors all competing for only 100 decks, is that rare/limited? Absolutely. There is "rare/limited", and then there is actually rare/limited.

I see your point. And I don't think there's a right/wrong answer because "rare" is not a quantitative term. Some decks can be "more rare" than others- personal preference, I believe.

[Strag]

Thinking about it, decided to cancel my 2 deck pledge. Just wasn't justifying the cost for me.

[Encarded]

If I ever print Zenith again you are all free to sue me, I'l put that on the record right now.