THUNDERDOME: On the topic of Pride / Rainbow branded products

[Harvonsgard]

If I say you're not willing to learn cardistry or skateboarding, is that an insult to you as well?
It's clearly not. I'm not in your black and white dychotomy scheme.

[CourtCurator]

.. for their latest go woke deck and deleting comments on their insta. t11 officially on the no buy shit list. you want to make some political statement pandering deck then silence those that disagree. go smurf yourselves.

You don’t think you are asking anyone who disagrees with you to do anything differently? You clearly are offended that the deck exists in the comment above. You also clearly think they should have to listen to your thoughts on the matter. Why?

Your complaint implies by its very nature that the way things have happened should not have gone down the way they did. The problem is that if it others had to do it the way that satisfies you, they would be limited in their ability to express their freedom. You don’t have to like what happened, but by complaining about it as though this behavior is a problem for the world, you are effectively denouncing their freedom to do something you disagree with. Why not just move on and allow them to do as they please if you believe so strongly in their freedom of expression? Because you don’t truly believe in it. That’s why.

lol literally. i started to type a response here, clearly we are on a different wavelength and no amount of explaining to you is going to make any difference nor do i really care to make any difference. i dont need some kind of validation from you or anyone else. you can take what i said as what i said, i disagree and am not going to support them, or take it some other way. nor am i going to go into the hypocrisy or certain parts of your statement because i doubt that all of the ''complaining'' that other groups or people do are doing would be seen by you as a ''problem for the world''. to use your words, you are effectively denouncing my freedom to do something you disagree with, which is simply state that i disagree and that i am not going to support them. have a great day!

You are absolutely right. I am saying the implication behind your complaint is that their freedom should be limited in some respect, and I’m saying that you don’t have the right to impose your twisted view of what freedom is upon others. You can complain all you want. But, the meaning behind that complaint is antithetical to freedom. There is no escaping this fact even if you are unable to see it for yourself.

[STLBluesNut]

Dammit, I'm out of popcorn.

lol, you missed your chance a while ago to post the micheal jackson eating popcorn meme then.

[STLBluesNut]

.. for their latest go woke deck and deleting comments on their insta. t11 officially on the no buy shit list. you want to make some political statement pandering deck then silence those that disagree. go smurf yourselves.

You don’t think you are asking anyone who disagrees with you to do anything differently? You clearly are offended that the deck exists in the comment above. You also clearly think they should have to listen to your thoughts on the matter. Why?

Your complaint implies by its very nature that the way things have happened should not have gone down the way they did. The problem is that if it others had to do it the way that satisfies you, they would be limited in their ability to express their freedom. You don’t have to like what happened, but by complaining about it as though this behavior is a problem for the world, you are effectively denouncing their freedom to do something you disagree with. Why not just move on and allow them to do as they please if you believe so strongly in their freedom of expression? Because you don’t truly believe in it. That’s why.

lol literally. i started to type a response here, clearly we are on a different wavelength and no amount of explaining to you is going to make any difference nor do i really care to make any difference. i dont need some kind of validation from you or anyone else. you can take what i said as what i said, i disagree and am not going to support them, or take it some other way. nor am i going to go into the hypocrisy or certain parts of your statement because i doubt that all of the ''complaining'' that other groups or people do are doing would be seen by you as a ''problem for the world''. to use your words, you are effectively denouncing my freedom to do something you disagree with, which is simply state that i disagree and that i am not going to support them. have a great day!

You are absolutely right. I am saying the implication behind your complaint is that their freedom should be limited in some respect, and I’m saying that you don’t have the right to impose your twisted view of what freedom is upon others. You can complain all you want. But, the meaning behind that complaint is antithetical to freedom. There is no escaping this fact even if you are unable to see it for yourself.

ok, last one for you as well. i NEVER ONCE said their freedom should be limited. i repeated multiple times they are FREE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. however, i disagree with their cause and i disagree with their censoring comments, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FREE TO DO BOTH, so i am not going to give them any more money. i will say it directly and plainly even, I DO NOT WANT T11"S FREEDOM LIMITED. being able to state a disagreement is almost a synonym with freedom. i am not trying to impose anything. me not giving t11 money is trying to impose something? then i am definitely imposing my views on ferrari, lamborghini, gucci, anyone, fontaine. hell, i dont have an in n out to eat at here, guess i am imposing my agenda on them too because i am not spending money there.

do you think after all i have said here, the unpopularity and the heat im getting i am still just trying to slyly imply something? do you have a reading comprehension problem? ill put it in cave man for you, DO NOT LIKE, WILL NOT BUY.

if you think i am trying to just imply something, ask me directly what you think it is, what malicious thing do you think i am trying to accomplish? ask me a straight question you will get a straight answer.

we are both not seeing something apparently. like 2 ships passing in the dark, brother.

PS. my private messages are still empty, so you apparently don't want to know what any of my views are on the LGBT topic really, you just want to demonize, assume and say im implying something. generally how it goes with these things though so i am not really surprised.

PSS. caps are for emphasis not yelling for those of you that are sensitve to caps.

[rousselle]

Hi, everyone.

Moderating a forum is tricky, even when there aren't particularly contentious issues being discussed. We try to strike the best balance we can, and we won't always get the balance quite right. Of course, I'm not sure there's an objective standard regarding where the right balance is.

I appreciate that everyone here is doing their best to have a conversation rather than a shouting match.

However, there's one point that was made that I really have to call out for being just blatantly, objectively wrong:

...this forum is for card collectors, who are for all intensive purposes “patrons of the arts”, art patrons being generally...

No. No, no, no. It's not "intensive purposes." It's "intents and purposes."

Thank you for attending my TEDTalk.

[STLBluesNut]

No. No, no, no. It's not "intensive purposes." It's "intents and purposes."

Thank you for attending my TEDTalk.

lol, i didnt catch that one. being one that is not the best at grammar, checking or correcting my own spelling mistakes, punctuation, capitalization, putting my thoughts into words, etc. i wouldnt have called him out on that any way. saw many grammar and spelling errors in the exchanges, not going to be that guy who's counterpoint is ''well, you cant even spell such and such''. what a bad response.

[rousselle]

I completely agree that would be a bad response. Whereas, I'm not trying to refute any argument. I'm just trying to lighten the mood.

[STLBluesNut]

I completely agree that would be a bad response. Whereas, I'm not trying to refute any argument. I'm just trying to lighten the mood.

and that is how it was taken, was i implying otherwise?

[GandalfPC]

My grammar is occasionally in need of “intents of care”

[CourtCurator]

I don’t believe that inferences I’ve made are unreasonable, but you implied that I have made some fallacious leaps. So, I’ll ask you some direct questions, as requested.

Do you support LGBTQIA++ rights despite any misgivings you may personally have surrounding the issue? I know the answer to this could be complicated, but in general do you believe in equal treatment and acceptance of differences?If you do, why would you feel the need to rail against this deck? If you do not, and yet you believe in the freedom of expression, why would you feel the need to rail against this deck, as opposed to let others do as they will and move on? The burning desire to express your dissent leaves me to infer a desire to impose your will upon others, otherwise why bother? Why do you feel the need to speak out boldly against a movement that promotes freedom and equality, if you truly believe in that freedom and equality even when it may grate against your own belief system? Do you just want to be heard, or do you want society to change? Because your original post suggests the latter to me.

[GandalfPC]

I have heard it voiced, and it may be blues assertion, that it is simply too “in his face” or given too much attention or focus outside of the percentages of people involved or the hardships they do or do not face in his opinion - it may be the Bible or religious beliefs or his opinion that it is an attempted indoctrination - or it may be something else entirely - I’m not really sure it matters, as whatever it is, I don’t think that an inquisition is going to change his mind on matters.

Friendly communication and sharing of perspectives will be the very least that is required to allow anyone to absorb someone else’s opinion on this matter, and it may require a bit of time for such things to sink in - beating over the head with the club of truth may prove quite ineffective

[STLBluesNut]

I don’t believe that inferences I’ve made are unreasonable, but you implied that I have made some fallacious leaps. So, I’ll ask you some direct questions, as requested.

Do you support LGBTQIA++ rights despite any misgivings you may personally have surrounding the issue? I know the answer to this could be complicated, but in general do you believe in equal treatment and acceptance of differences?If you do, why would you feel the need to rail against this deck? If you do not, and yet you believe in the freedom of expression, why would you feel the need to rail against this deck, as opposed to let others do as they will and move on? The burning desire to express your dissent leaves me to infer a desire to impose your will upon others, otherwise why bother? Why do you feel the need to speak out boldly against a movement that promotes freedom and equality, if you truly believe in that freedom and equality even when it may grate against your own belief system? Do you just want to be heard, or do you want society to change? Because your original post suggests the latter to me.

i am happy to answer, in depth as i can even. i have not read the whole post yet or given it much thought.

however, i will ask the moderators if they would like me to answer here or in private as it may, likely will, open more rabbit holes lol. even if i answer in private i do not care if it is shared publicly if the mods then deem the conversation is acceptable. i dont mind the questions or answering those or follow ups.

i am leaving work soon and will be heading home and i will type out a response there if the moderators say i can reply here. it will be going a bit more in depth on the lgbt topic. i assume many will not share my perspectives but i also think think they are not as demonlike as one may assume. there is so much heat around the topic that any dissent is automatically assumed to be the worst homophobic hateful type there is. i assure you that is not where i land.

so i will check back here in like an hour and see how to proceed.

[GandalfPC]

I honestly don’t know what to tell you. The idea that your reply may not be the worst and most hateful homophobia somehow implies that there is an acceptable level - which there really isn’t - anymore than there is an acceptable level of racism. Being not as demonlike similarly gives little comfort. Should you somehow feel that your position is not homophobic, and that you can take a deep breath and a bit of thought to chew it over and still think that, then have at it - but I don’t envision this ending well…

(One reason I feel that, is that I know that I don’t need to ask anyone if I can post my opinion on the matter - and needing to is a potential red flag.)

[hsbc]

I think you've made your point STLBluesNut - I'll also note that the UC rules say that "conduct that discriminates based on race, religion, gender, disability, political affiliation or nationality, or that otherwise promotes hate will not be tolerated"

[STLBluesNut]

I honestly don’t know what to tell you. The idea that your reply may not be the worst and most hateful homophobia somehow implies that there is an acceptable level - which there really isn’t - anymore than there is an acceptable level of racism. Being not as demonlike similarly gives little comfort. Should you somehow feel that your position is not homophobic, and that you can take a deep breath and a bit of thought to chew it over and still think that, then have at it - but I don’t envision this ending well…

(One reason I feel that, is that I know that I don’t need to ask anyone if I can post my opinion on the matter - and needing to is a potential red flag.)

well homophobic is quite the term for someone that just disagrees with a particular ideology, especially since no one is scared. oh, i know my response is well within guidelines, i was asking and leaving it up to you out of respect of opening any other rabbit hole or starting the current discussion down another path. but thanks for your opinion and barely veiled warning.

I think you've made your point STLBluesNut - I'll also note that the UC rules say that "conduct that discriminates based on race, religion, gender, disability, political affiliation or nationality, or that otherwise promotes hate will not be tolerated"

if you can show me where i discriminated against anyone... on any one of those grounds. i am all for being reminded of the rules but that doesnt seem to be just a friendly reminder.

so the response will be done privately i guess. it can be up to courtcurator to forward it on or not and you guys if it is posted or not. i can even send it to either or both of you if so desired.

edit- i have sent my response and left it up to him if he would like to forward it on. he is more than welcome. you know, just in case my conduct has breached any rules as you have duly "pointed out". i assume if i had, i wouldnt be able to still reply here. courtcurator or any mod that receives said reply is free to post here publicly for all of the inquiring minds. in fact, anyone who would like to see or discuss my response is free to message me and i will send it to you. i have nothing to hide. all i ask is that if posted, it is posted in its entirety, not clipped, snipped and pasted. i have a copy and screenshots of exactly what was sent and what i will send to anyone.

[GandalfPC]

Ideology is a poor description at best - for instance, heterosexuality is not an ideology while heteronormative is - one describes a state of being while the other describes a determination on the way people should be.

As for phobic or phobia in this case: “Although the suffix phobia generally designates an irrational fear, in the case of homophobia the word instead refers to an attitudinal disposition ranging from mild dislike to abhorrence of people who are sexually or romantically attracted to individuals of the same sex. ”

By the definition above, if you dislike that particular “ideology” then yes, you do qualify as homophobic.

As for hsbc posting the rules above, it was there to provide context for your response that you questioned the posting of, and in the end decided not to post - it was not in response to your previously posted replies.

As for barely veiled warnings, I am not a timid person, and if I want to give a warning it will not come barely veiled. At this point I simply stated what I wished to state, which I believe was good advice.

[Harvonsgard]

LGBTQIA++

Is that a typo (I guess not since, I've read LGBTQIA2+ lately)? If not, what does two pluses mean? I'm aware of the meaning of the others including the first +.

[rousselle]

Hi, folks.

A couple things:

1) regarding the acronyms used to describe self-identified and supporters of non-heteronormative identities, I've not only found LGBTQIA++, but also LGBTQQIP2SAA+ and others. I made the mistake of googling the various permutations looking for definitions (and, interestingly, they don't all agree on what the second "A" stands for), so it'll be fascinating to see what kinds of ads I start finding in my browser and e-mail tomorrow.

2) I'm glad to see that even though this conversation is heating up, everyone is doing their best not to tip over into a riot, so that's cool. Please do try to keep it respectful.

3) a) that said, this conversation has obviously reached a point where it is no longer even tangentially related to playing cards, as such, AND

3) b) insofar as we do not want the UC in general to become an unwelcoming place for those in our community who may feel ill-at-ease with conversations on this particular topic, I'm inclined to encourage everyone who wants to continue this conversation in a publicly-accessible thread to kindly move on over to the Non-Playing Card General Forum (viewforum.php?f=18). I'm going to create a thread there called:

THUNDERDOME: On the topic of Pride / Rainbow branded products

I am moving this thread over to that location under that title, and locking the original topic in the Playing Cards General Forum.

Welcome to the Thunderdome!

Please keep this conversation civil.

Please do not resort to personal attacks.

Please do not post anything here that you would not want to be associated with your user name elsewhere on the internet.

[theCapraAegagrus]

T11 is just jumping on the same virtue-signaling bandwagon that every other corporation has been doing over the years, to exploit people for profit. *shrug* (This is not suggesting that only this cause is exploiting people for profit. I am an equal-opportunity hater.)

[theCapraAegagrus]

On the subject of "Pride Month", there are a few things that bother me when this time of year comes around:

1. Pride is a Deadly SIn.
2. Many people use this month to spread misinformation, generally regarding human biology.
3. It emboldens the extremists of the LBG("+") community, such as those who seek to indoctrinate children.
4. We have a mental health crisis in America, and I think this sets the clock back to 0 every year.

Ignore this nitty-gritty if you are easily offended and/or uninterested in "politics" of this issue:

Everyone deserves equal rights, period. A subset of people do not have the right to change language to fit their delusions, and demand that I play make-believe with them. If you walk and talk like a "she", I will respect you and call you "her". However, if you have XY chromosomes, you are not a woman. The suicide rate of the "+" community is over 40%, because they typically have severe mental problems (see: Ezra Miller), and people enable their issues rather than getting them real help. Most of the time, their body isn't a problem, it's all between the ears.

If you want to debate me on this topic, take note that if I had to self-identify with a political party, I would be a Libertarian. I have voted for both major political parties in the past, so my experience and understanding of the political spectrum is more extensive than most people my age. I only abhor the extremists of both parties.

[brownsl]

The suicide rate of the "+" community is over 40%

I do not know what the "+" represents but a suicide rate needs to be defined with a period of time. Typically, it is given as a number per 100,000 and the period of time is "per year". I do not understand a rate given as a percentage. Can you elaborate? Also, does it mean "attempt suicide" or "commit suicide"?

[GandalfPC]

T11 … to exploit people for profit.

As posted on page 1 of this thread, I did contact T11 to ask them where the profits were going, they replied:

“Hey Gandalf! Happy to answer the question here. Proceeds from this deck benefit The Trevor Project and the ACLU to support and defend individual rights and crisis support services to LGBTQ youth, as these were hand selected by Shantell herself for this new edition. There's also not only rainbow foil on the card box that looks absolutely beautiful in the light, but the card backs themselves are also printed with a stellar holographic foil that color shifts depending on the angle. That's all we can say for now, but we're excited to release this new edition with Shantell directly. Have a wonderful week!”

[GandalfPC]

Can you elaborate? Also, does it mean "attempt suicide" or "commit suicide"?

You can also do your own research on this with some google searching, as there is more data available on specific age groups, Native Americans, etc.

[GandalfPC]

those who seek to indoctrinate children.

There is a difference between indoctrination and education to remove stigma. Culturally we have put a lot of time and effort into teaching children and adults what is good and bad, undoing some of that damage is not “indoctrination”.

The suicide rate is directly tied to the public stigma.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The suicide rate of the "+" community is over 40%

I do not know what the "+" represents but a suicide rate needs to be defined with a period of time. Typically, it is given as a number per 100,000 and the period of time is "per year". I do not understand a rate given as a percentage. Can you elaborate? Also, does it mean "attempt suicide" or "commit suicide"?

The "+" is for people who identify as "non-binary". Since 2015, the accumulative reported attempted suicide rate of people who believe they are neither male nor female is above 40%. The amount of "+" people who hurt themselves (non-suicide attempt) is over 65%. The amount of "+" people who seriously contemplate suicide is over 80%.

My understanding is that these numbers are relatively consistent year-to-year. For example, the attempted suicide rate was 43% in 2015, and 41% in 2021.

I support everyone doing what they reasonably can to make themselves happy. I am significantly concerned with enabling people by making them feel like they fit-in, because that's a fleeting comfort.

[GandalfPC]

Enabling people by making them think they fit in is not the point.

Stopping not letting them fit in is the point.


“More than 60% of LGBTQ youth said their home wasn't affirming, the survey found. Nearly 2 in 5 LGBTQ youth said they lived in a community that wasn't accepting of LGBTQ people.”

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/10969206 ... ect-survey

[theCapraAegagrus]

those who seek to indoctrinate children.

There is a difference between indoctrination and education to remove stigma. Culturally we have put a lot of time and effort into teaching children and adults what is good and bad, undoing some of that damage is not “indoctrination”.

The suicide rate is directly tied to the public stigma.

My analysis accounts for the difference between education and indoctrination. There are people who think that a boy wanting to wear a dress also means that he wants to be a girl. A dress is simply a piece of fabric.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Enabling people by making them think they fit in is not the point.

Stopping not letting them fit in is the point.

A man can never be a woman, and vice-versa, is the point. There are tons of examples of regret by people who are encouraged to mutilate their bodies. Just because something can be done, does not mean it should be done.

IIRC, you mentioned before, tolerance does not include tolerating the intolerant. I personally will not tolerate someone with XY chromosomes telling me that 'they' are a woman. I have to listen to reason.

[GandalfPC]

A dress is simply fabric, and you can wear one regardless of your sexual orientation - that is certainly agreed. If I want I can put one on right now I imagine, and it will not change my sexual orientation.

Similarly, a sexual orientation is not a dress, and I cannot simply put one on.

To the transgender regretting surgery point “Detransition is more common in the earlier stages of transition, particularly before surgeries. The number of detransitioners is unknown, with estimates ranging from less than 1% to as many as 8%.”

[EvilDuncan]

My analysis accounts for the difference between education and indoctrination. There are people who think that a boy wanting to wear a dress also means that he wants to be a girl. A dress is simply a piece of fabric.

I do at least agree with this point. Trans people are absolutely valid, but there are also feminine boys/men and masculine girls/women and everything in between. Society tends to place too much emphasis on gendered clothing. People should be allowed to wear what they like in public (within reason) without people pushing a particular view of gender norms on them.